Garage Ideas

smdl · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Garage Ideas

Thanks, guys --I really appreciate the understanding and the continued welcome.

On the garage, I am still very optimistic that things will work out well and that I will be staying here, so I would like to get it sorted the way I like. As you say, even if I do end up moving, this will help resale.

Have you guys spent much time at www.garagejournal.com ? Amazing forum with some incredible, mind-bending garages, but also a lot of great ideas for more average applications. I really enjoy spending time there, as well.

Cheers,
Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Yeah, Shaun, the garagejournal is a cool place. Lots of helpful people over there. It's a good place to get opinions on the latest products, tools, building practices, techniques and a whole lot more. I don't post there, I just lurk. So, what are your garage projects? Going to be installing some granite flooring and crystal chandeliers soon? LOL

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

No, but I may get a diamond-encrusted toolbox...

Seriously, though, it's kind of nice to have a blank canvas to work with.

The walls have never been insulated and closed in, so it's just a matter of pulling a bunch of nails and removing 20+ years of rickety shelves, hooks, etc. that have been tacked up. I also plan to get the overhead door rails re-mounted to the actual trusses (currently attached to 27' long 2x10s) so that I can have as much height as possible.

The garage has 3 bays, with a width of 29' and a depth of 27'. I'm thinking of putting small lofts for storage over the outer bays, and leaving the centre open to leave space for a 4-post lift. I figure I can access the lofts by bringing things up and down on the lift. One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not the lofts will need support pillars. If they do, I will just do without them as I don't want posts in the middle of the garage.

At the moment, I am preparing to install a man door to the house, and another to the side of the garage (outside) as these are noticeably absent in the design. Beyond that, I am planning to upgrade the electrical panel in the house to 200 amp and would like to move the current 100 amp panel to the garage. This will allow for lots of lights, 120VAC outlets and 230VAC for my welder, compressor, etc. I would also like to bring plumbing/drainage in for a sink, and will wire the place for Ethernet (computer/TV/music), telephone and additional security while I'm there.

One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not I should run all my compressed air lines in the wall or leave them exposed. I plan to wall in the area around the pool equipment, and am thinking of putting the compressor in there in order to keep the noise down, so I could just run one air line up to the ceiling and it would pretty much reach anywhere. that said, it would be nice to have multiple lines available around the shop so I am not dragging the hose across the vehicles all the time.

I'm not one for making things too fancy, so I plan to go fairly inexpensive on cabinets. I like the steel-shelving-with-sides-and-doors-attached concept that is currently being spotlighted at garagejournal.com. These end up being roomy, really strong, and nice enough looking to make me happy. Best of all, they're pretty cheap! I will also keep my eyes open for any old kitchen cabinets that are being removed from houses in the area.

I'll be trying to keep the costs down as much as possible by doing most of the work myself. It will be hard work, but should be really rewarding.

Anything obvious I'm missing?

Cheers,
Shaun

51hornet · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Just make sure when you are routing the air lines you take into account condensation and water traps to remove it. You need to put a water trap and condensation loop in front of the run to the garage and after the loop user a dryer so that the air you are using is dry. You have probably thought of this already. I would for sure leave the lines on the outside of the wall.If you had an air leak and had to rip out walls that would be a bummer.

When I did my garage I insulated and used 3/8 sheets of OSB as I wanted something that could take a beating. And it has proved itself many times. You can whack it with a hammer and nothing. Did not want to use drywall as my old garage had that and I had holes everywhere. I painted this stuff up and it looks good.

All of my cabinets were from a goodwill store that is setup to sell reclaimed housing stuff. Cost me $150 for the lot.

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Exellent thoughts, Sean.

Yes, you have immediately touched on the issues relating to why I was thinking of leaving all the air lines exposed. The other thing I am considering is splitting the supply to provide both oiled and dry loops so that I can use both air tools and spray guns without worry.

I like the OSB idea! The only wall that I have to be careful of is the one that is common with the house (fire separation), but that is already a combination of cinder block and drywall, so it should be okay. I could actually put a layer of OSB over top of the drywall, if I wanted to.

Thanks for the input!

Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Shaun,

At least you can take the Bling Bling tool box when you move.

Your garage sounds like a nice space that needs little prep work. What type of insulation are you going to use? The service door leading into the house should be of a fire rated type and may be required to have automatic closer hardware. The other should be of insulated type if you're going to heat the garage. If you need to cut framing and install headers to accomplish door installations, these are deemed structural changes that will more than likely require a permit.

In order to comment more accurately on your other anticipated changes, I'd have to know more specifics about the age and general construction aspects of your house and garage, including the mechanical systems. Please, for safety sake, don't even consider cutting corners. If support is required, but is omitted and you suffer a loss as a result, your insurance will not pay the claim.

Sean makes good points regarding a compressed air system. However, the use of OSB as finished wall and ceiling surfaces may not allowed if the garage is attached to your home. Rather, codes in North America require fire rated drywall for the ceiling and and walls that are common to the house and garage. In your case, the existing CMU and drywall comply. If you want something that you can throw hammers at and generally abuse, why not cut to the chase and use cement board? You can screw it in place and paint it. If you don't finish the seams, each panel can be removed if needs be.

As far as if you are missing anything else, perhaps. Have you checked to see if building permits will be required for any of the work you plan? If so, you'll have to procure them and submit drawings for review. Special consideration must be given to the floor type, especially if you intend to install a lift that will concentrate loads to specific areas. Although many people think they can get away without getting permits and inspections, they usually get caught. More often than not, goofy neighbors blow the whistle. Even if they don't, a professional home inspector may bring such things to light if you're in the process of selling your home. Then, your buyer may demand repairs or monetary compensation. If you're found out by the local building authority, they have the authority to order all illegal improvements (even if to code, but performed without permits) to be removed. Then, the taxing body gets involved and wants back payment for improvements, those which increased value but were not disclosed to them. Not trying to discourage you, just trying to get the point across to be safe and on the legal up and up.

As far as cabinetry and other improvements is concerned, anything you attach to the property ceases to become personal property and converts to real property. Therefore, if you are selling your home and wish to take installed improvements with you, you will have to remove them before listing or will have to make them an exclusion.

Finally, don't forget fire extinguishers, smoke and carbon monoxide detectors and other fire/life safety features that may be required.

51hornet · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Yup my Garage is no where near the house. Its at the end of our huge lot. I have multiple fire extinguishers in mine which is a good thing plus I use no volatile chemicals. Only thing is gas in tank of car. I am a fire hazard nut. I have every type of detector in garage.

Thats good info from Dave. I missed the attached or near the house point. I will never work on a car in an attached garage I do not care what has been done to it. I believe that the garage you work on needs to be away from the house so when I blow it up its only me that gets taken out. Just my personal opinion. I have gone over to friends houses and they are spraying cars in attached garages and the smell is throughout the house. I am not jiggy with that. Even if my garage exploded it would come no where near the house unless there was a 50 mph wind.

And thats a whole section of info I want to post in the keep it Green section how to restore a car without using harsh chemicals. I mean its easy to get in there with the petroleum based cleaners but it takes smarts and elbow grease to do it green.

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

All good points, Dave. Don't worry -- I wouldn't consider proceeding without permits. Inspectors don't scare me as I want it done properly anyway and, like you say, it's not worth the potential hassles later.

Also, I will use contractors for the touchy stuff (especially electrical termination and installing the doors in load-bearing walls). I will do all the things like insulation, drywalling and painting, plus cabinets, etc. I'm not sure on insulation yet -- any suggestions? We get down to about -25C (-13F) here, so it's not too bad.

Good point on the materials -- I was certain the common wall would have to be fire-rated, as would the door, but I wasn't sure about the ceiling. I had thought that only applied if part of the house was above the garage, which it is not in my case (only the one wall borders on the house). I was thinking of using fire-retardent paint on the OSB, but you concerns are valid and I will probably just go with drywall.

The house is a wood-framed raised bungalow with brick veneer, built in 1984. Mechanical systems are pretty standard, with forced-air natural gas furnace, central AC, etc., all completely isolated from the garage. I wouldn't consider sharing air between the house and garage, and would install standalone systems in the garage if needed. I'm not sure how much time I'll spend our there in the winter, but will give that some thought.

I always have fire extinguishers handy in my garage, and smoke/CO detectors just make good sense. I have both in the house already, and will certainly add them to the garage.

Sean, I agree that it would be great to have a separate garage, but we can't always have everything we want. I was amazed that we managed to get everything we did with this house: Lots of room, .6 acres, in a kid-friendly cul-de-sac with little traffic, 3 car garage, great neighbours (many car guys), in a rural area but not that far from all the amenities. Overall, we�re very happy.

Your comments on going green are interesting. If you would be willing to share, I would be very interested in hearing about some of the solutions you have found. The entire autobody industry is currently going through a bit of a revolution, in that way, so I'm sure it will get easier with time, but there are never too many good ideas.

Thanks again, guys. I appreciate all the input and normal/healthy concern.

Shaun

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Oh, and I wouldn't be concerned about excluding the cabinets when moving. If I move, it will be about 5000KM, so they won't be coming with me!

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Sean,

One more Sean or Shaun on here and I'm going to start assigning numbers. Smile

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that when your garage goes up, it won't disrupt the family. The point with a garage being attached is one of concern for the spread of fumes, flames and fire from a place where gasoline vehicles are stored. However, the likelihood of you doing something careless is pretty slim.

Shaun,

Although it sounds like you're an informed guy, I'm not sure of exactly how much of what you know. So, I'm being the Devil's advocate who doesn't want to see you go wrong or worse, get hurt. Twisted Evil

Although hiring out is obviously more costly and can be troublesome at times, at least you'll have some guarantee and manner of recourse should something go awry. With conventional 2"x4" wall framing, you can max out at an insulation value of about R-13. This assumes the use of fiberglass batts, complete with integral vapor barrier. If you have sufficient height between the ceiling and the underside of the roof deck, an insulation value of R-49 is suggested if the space is to be heated using natural gas. A higher value would be required if using electricity as the fuel source. The ceiling must have a vapor barrier and you can use fiberglass batts, loose fill (blown-in) fiberglass, loose fill rock wool (made from mineral slag) or cellulose that is treated with fire retardant.It sounds like your home is relatively young and in good condition. The location sounds nice too. All in all, it sounds worthy of having a Garage Mahal. With that thought in mind, I'd go with the drywall. If your roof is constructed of 2"x4" webbed wood trusses, you cannot alter them unless a plan is submitted to, and approved by, an Engineer. Further, the bottom chord of such trusses are designed to do their job and support a finished ceiling, nothing more. As such, they are not designed, nor are they intended to sustain live or dead loads being placed atop them. If your roof were stick built (constructed on-site using dimensional lumber), you could easily do a loft and access it via a stationary stairway or pull-down ladder. However, it would be challenging (takes lots of space) to have a substantial ceiling insulation and storage too. Oh, most codes not require that the common wall and ceiling of attached garages be fire rated drywall. The latter to prevent the roof from being consumed should a fire occur.

BTW, residential code requirements prohibit a garage from sharing the same duct system was that of a house. The best choice for heating an existing garage would be a gas fired, ceiling hung heater. One of a sealed combustion type would allay code concerns about a flame being exposed within the garage.

Just be careful if Sean (alias Mr. Green) wants to visit. He hugged one of my trees for so long, he almost wore the bark off of it. Just kidding. After all, how can you knock a guy for wanting to do good these days.10-4 on the cabinets. Just don't foget that diamond encrusted tool box. Laughing

Dave

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Thanks, Dave.

At least Sean and I had the consideration to spell our names differently. I was once on a forum that had about 5 guys named Mark on it -- all that participated quite actively. When referencing the participants of any particular conversation, you could easily come out sounding like a dog with a speech impediment.

As to your description... I would class myself as somewhat informed and always willing to learn. As you once said, I don't shy away from asking questions, which is the only way I feel comfortable, in the end, that I have done things in the correct way. What is clear is that I am not nearly as informed as you, which is another reason why I am glad that I asked. Thanks for the great advice, and please don't apologize for challenging the concepts that I am describing. It should be clear that I am an amateur on the subject, early in my investigations as to what is possible, and I would be foolish to avoid or resent informed input.

With regard to construction of the roof support, I just went out and really looked at it for the first time in a while (long winter) and realized that I had described it incorrectly in using the term "truss". Engineered trusses are what have been used exclusively in my previous homes, but they are not used here. Instead, traditional methods are in place. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on construction, so would love to send you a picture and get your opinion relating to the loft idea. I know there wouldn't be a lot of height there, but even a few feet would be helpful for long term storage of smaller items. That said, if it just doesn't make sense, that's okay, too.

What I am not comfortable with about the current setup is the structure that has been used to support the garage doors, lighting, etc. As I had alluded to previously, whoever did this has just stretched about 6 2x6's from the front to the rear of the garage (26.5 feet) with no support across the span, and not a whole lot of lateral location. As the available lumber was not long enough to do this with one piece, they nailed two 2X6s together, with about 3 feet of overlap, to make up the extra length. These long, unsupported expanses are sagging very visibly, by now, and they really make me feel uncomfortable. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but they sure don't look right to me!

So, my thought was to remove these, and to attach the doors, openers, etc. to the rafters, or to the joists, if the storage loft was practical. I'm just not comfortable with the current setup...

Thanks again for the great input!

Shaun

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Sorry -- one other question I meant to ask was in relation to this excerpt from your post:

"Oh, most codes not require that the common wall and ceiling of attached garages be fire rated drywall. The latter to prevent the roof from being consumed should a fire occur."

I think you are saying that code *does* require fire-rated drywall -- is this correct? Makes sense to me, but I just wanted to check.

Oh, and by the way, I am fortunate that the fire department is only 3 blocks away, and even more fortunate that I can rarely hear them responding to calls unless I am outside in the yard. About the best balance that I could have hoped for!

Cheers,
Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

smdl wrote:

Thanks, Dave.

At least Sean and I had the consideration to spell our names differently. I was once on a forum that had about 5 guys named Mark on it -- all that participated quite actively. When referencing the participants of any particular conversation, you could easily come out sounding like a dog with a speech impediment.

As to your description... I would class myself as somewhat informed and always willing to learn. As you once said, I don't shy away from asking questions, which is the only way I feel comfortable, in the end, that I have done things in the correct way. What is clear is that I am not nearly as informed as you, which is another reason why I am glad that I asked. Thanks for the great advice, and please don't apologize for challenging the concepts that I am describing. It should be clear that I am an amateur on the subject, early in my investigations as to what is possible, and I would be foolish to avoid or resent informed input.

With regard to construction of the roof support, I just went out and really looked at it for the first time in a while (long winter) and realized that I had described it incorrectly in using the term "truss". Engineered trusses are what have been used exclusively in my previous homes, but they are not used here. Instead, traditional methods are in place. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on construction, so would love to send you a picture and get your opinion relating to the loft idea. I know there wouldn't be a lot of height there, but even a few feet would be helpful for long term storage of smaller items. That said, if it just doesn't make sense, that's okay, too.

What I am not comfortable with about the current setup is the structure that has been used to support the garage doors, lighting, etc. As I had alluded to previously, whoever did this has just stretched about 6 2x6's from the front to the rear of the garage (26.5 feet) with no support across the span, and not a whole lot of lateral location. As the available lumber was not long enough to do this with one piece, they nailed two 2X6s together, with about 3 feet of overlap, to make up the extra length. These long, unsupported expanses are sagging very visibly, by now, and they really make me feel uncomfortable. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, but they sure don't look right to me!

So, my thought was to remove these, and to attach the doors, openers, etc. to the rafters, or to the joists, if the storage loft was practical. I'm just not comfortable with the current setup...

Thanks again for the great input!

Shaun

Hey Shaun,

I know what you are saying about so many forum members having the same name. I think that's why many people "adopt" a handle. Now if your name is Jethro or Cletus, that's a different story.

Since you are relatively new here, and I do not know your scope of knowledge, I was just trying to be polite and respectful. In time, I'll turn into a curmudgeon. Laughing

You can send pictures to me in a PM if you don't want the prying eyes of the world to see your personal business. I would be happy to assess your situation and make suggestions regarding the topics at hand. If loft space is to be limited by storage, you can still have ceiling insulation, just not as much. Also, consideration must be given to what sort of storage will occur in that space and to what degree, if any, pedestrian traffic will occur there.

Without seeing pictures, but based upon what I understand from your desciption, lateral support is required with a stick built roof to prevent the rafter ends from splaying outward. This is particularly important with a gable style roof. If the length in question is longer than can be spanned by lengths of stock framing, the best option would be to install LDL beams. They would provide lateral stability required while supplying a basis upon which you can add framing to which your overhead door tracks, finished ceiling, and lighting can be attached. If this is too costly, you can section dimensional lumber together, just in a better way than originally implemented. Given the span, using members of at least 2"x10" dimensions is suggested. The length of stock framing is typically limited to 16 feet. When splicing wood members together, nails are ineffective and only bolts may be used so that the splices don't "hinge" or "shear" and become deflected to the point of failure. In either case, and assuming proper construction techniques, vertical supports would not be required.

At this point, I caution you against arbitrarily eliminating the members in question and using rafters to support your loft or other loads they were not intended to sustain.

If this sounds a bit overwhelming, don't dispare. It's easier than you think to accomplish your goal. Also, you'll look like quite the expert, especially should you need to hire out fo this job. Very Happy

Dave

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

smdl wrote:

Sorry -- one other question I meant to ask was in relation to this excerpt from your post:"Oh, most codes not require that the common wall and ceiling of attached garages be fire rated drywall. The latter to prevent the roof from being consumed should a fire occur."I think you are saying that code *does* require fire-rated drywall -- is this correct? Makes sense to me, but I just wanted to check.Oh, and by the way, I am fortunate that the fire department is only 3 blocks away, and even more fortunate that I can rarely hear them responding to calls unless I am outside in the yard. About the best balance that I could have hoped for!Cheers,Shaun

Shaun,

Ooops, my bad. You are correct in that most building codes do require a fire-proof seperation between a house and attached garage. Even if it were not required, common sense and the nature of a garages intended function dictates otherwise.

I'm glad to hear that the fire department is nearby. Let's keep it that way.

It's Springtime, let's get building!

Dave

51hornet · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Shaun,

I would look into replacing that built up beam with a engineered GluLam beam but would suggest pulling in an engineer to give it a look over as spanning over 26 feet with a built up is a no no. Some of the companies that supply the engineered beams will come in and look over your needs and build the correct setup.

Since you are in Ontario we may need to call in Mike Holmes.