Buyer's Guide?

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Buyer's Guide?

Hi, folks.

This is my first post, and my reason for doing so is that my childhood fascination with the Hudson Hornet has recently been revived. So, I am just now learning about the cars that I thought looked so cool when I (rarely) saw them growing up back in the early 70's.

What I am wondering is if there is something definitive somewhere that captures what to look for in a '51-'54 Hornet, and -- more importantly -- what to stay away from. Reading a number of posts, I'm starting to get an idea about some things, but wonder if there is some sort of checklist that someone has put together (sorry if it already exists and I have just missed it).

Aside from that, if you folks wouldn't mind giving a noob a few pointers, I would really appreciate it. As for my tastes, I like almost all Hornets of the referenced years (I also don't mind the '55s), so I don't really have any strong biases towards a particular model. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance! This looks like a great site!

Shaun
Toronto

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Hi, Sean, Welcome to the site.

I don't think there is a definitive checklist of what to avoid. However, and since Hudsons of the years you are interested in are of unibody construction, rust in the perimeter frame members is the biggest thing to watch for and avoid. With the exception of Hudson's cork clutch, just about anything else that can go wrong is the same with a Hudson as any other car. As far as prices of Hornets is concerned, the 55's are usually more affordable than prior years. Although there have been many fine cars produced over the years, few have rivaled the design, handling and ride of a Hudson.

Dave

smdl · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Thanks, Dave. I appreciate both the welcome and the advice! I've never driven a Hudson, but have heard so many good things about the way they drive, that I am really looking forward to that part.

Cheers,
Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Sorry, Shaun, I just noticed I misspelled your name. Sean is the man behind this site and he's from Edmonton. Anyway, are you looking into purchasing a Hudson soon? If so, feel free to post whatever info and pictures you can of cars you're interested in. We'll be glad to offer our usual witty opinions and critiques.

Happy Hudsoning,

Dave

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

No problem at all on the name, Dave -- I've had that all my life!

I am seriously considering buying a car, probably as a restoration project. The trick is, I don't want to spend a lot of money on it up front, so will take my time looking. I certainly wouldn't be against finding something a little bit better than a basket-case and doing a bit of a rolling-restoration on it, as well. I'm just trying to get familiar enough with the market to understand what a reasonable expectation of value vs. cost would be.

Most of the cars I have come across have already been spotted and discussed in the For Sale section of this forum (you guys are good at spotting them!). One that is intriguing me, at present, is this one:

albany.craigslist.org/...10562.html

The price seems reasonable, and the condition actually looks pretty decent (from the pictures). It's also not that far away from me. Has anyone on the forum actually looked at this car in person? It's also possible that it has already sold. I will give them a call sometime today to find out.

This one is also interesting, as someone has already started the restoration:

jfpoe.com/7c242297.htm

I believe that the owner (Jim Poe) is known in the Hudson community, as his name is referenced as having helped get John Battles' reproduction parts list back on the 'net. I have emailed him with a few questions, but haven't heard back yet.

This one also looked like it might be a good place to start:

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotor...0217689736

As it didn't sell at auction, I thought it might be worthwhile to try to contact the owner to see if it is still available. I'm a little concerned about what would happen when bringing it back to Canada if it doesn't have a title/registration, though.

Any additional thoughts on these 3 would be very much appreciated. It's both fun and challenging to be in such a learning mode!

Thanks,
Shaun

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Just to add a bit of information on the tan/bronze car in Albany, I just spoke to the owner. Story is that he has only owned it since December, he has registration in his name, it is NY inspected, but is not currently plated. He had storage until March 1st, but it is now sitting in his driveway with a tarp over it. The previous owner was 86, and had owned the car for 30 years.

He says it runs and drives very well, repaint was done several years ago (originally blue), interior is basically good (blue), but the front seat is worn and has a cover on it.

Now the touchy part -- there is rust on the underside of the car. He says that the floorboards are good, but the rockers do have rust coming through in a few spots. He got a little defensive, here, as it sounds like others have given him a hard time for it. He strongly stated that he had told people that there was some rust, and that he wasn�t asking a lot for the car, so he was surprised when people were then surprised to find rust. He says that the car sits up firm, doors all open and close well, and there is no apparent sagging anywhere.

If anyone has any thoughts about this, I would sure appreciate hearing them. Assuming it is pretty rusty underneath, it the price ($6500.00) still pretty reasonable for a running, driving and complete car with all parts in place?

Albany is about a 7-hour drive for me (barring border waits), so I could go down and have a look at it on a weekend without too much trouble. Unfortunately, he doesn�t have any more pictures.

Thanks,
Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Shaun,

The first car you mention sounds good. However, the rust is concerning. On the up side, the New York inspection aspect is interesting, especially if they passed the car. I wonder what, if anything, the state had to say about the rust. The price would be in line, providing the car is as represented and that the rust is not too bad. Even though Hudsons are built like Sherman tanks, even they can suffer the ravages of rust. The higher asking price seems justified by the engine rebuild and the fact that the car has Twin-H. Also, I'd be curious about how well the 12v conversion was done.

As far as the second car goes, I'd avoid a car that someone has started restoration on, unless it were a resto shop. My thought is to avoid having to undo bad work. It just adds time and increases expenses.

The last car looked to be an intact original that would be a good buy for a few thousand dollars. It doesn't have Twin-H, but that can be added if you like. As you are probably aware, contacting a seller outside of eBay is a big no no. But we do what we have to, right?

Just remember, the cost of restoration often exceeds that of buying a car that is already done. That assumes having all work done professionally. If you have the resources to do most of the work yourself, you could probably come out ahead of the game by buying a car that needs restoration. It depends on your talents. If you do exceptional work, your investment in time and money will come back to you. If you can't or won't commit to spening money and using the best efforts and materials, your going to waste those resources.

As far as seller representations go, I've never found them to be accurate. Not that I'm saying all sellers are liars, but we all have different perceptions of condition and how to describe it. Although ongoing communications and driving to see prospective purchases can be a pain, this is the one aspect of the process you must not omit. Make the investment in time now or you'll pay the piper at a later date. As for me, my car came quite a distance and I didn't see it in person before I bought it. However, I was lucky enough to talk to the owner whose shop restored it and to have club members check it out before I made the jump. So, I was thorough in my homework and now have a fully restored, highly optioned 53 Hornet in my collection that looks and drives as new. The same I believe was true of Sean, our host here. He bought his 51 Hornet on your side of the country and drove it back to Edmonton.

I used to be of the mind to buy cars cheap and restore as I went along. However, I'll never regret buying a well restored car as it works for me and my situtation at this time.

Hoping you find a Hudson,

Dave

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Wow -- great advice, Dave.

I'm actually looking forward to having a project to work on, which is why I am thinking of something low cost that needs restoration. I have many of the tools I need and am developing the skills over time.

My last project (mostly finished) was to build a complete car from scratch (Lotus 7 clone). Before that, I brought a motorcycle back to life after finding just frame and engine at a junkyard. I wouldn't say I'm really good at it yet, but I am learning and improving. I find that I really enjoy the ability to create and to influence a complex project at times when things move too slowly for my tastes at work.

All that said, I certainly recognize that sometimes it is just better and cheaper to buy something complete, so I am not against that either. I'll keep my eyes and options open...

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and wisdom. It's not lost on me, by any means.

Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Hi Shaun,

Since it sounds like you have some experience, I'm sure whatever you choose to do will be fine, especially since you are not afraid to ask questions. As I said before, the most crucial aspect of a step down Hudson is the perimeter frame. It's sort of like the economics of restoring an old house. If the house has a bad foundation, no other work you can do is justified unless the foundation can be repaired. There is a lot to be said for restoring a car yourself. You do what you can and farm out what you can't do or are not interested in doing. As long as you remain dedicated and are not on a time frame or unrealistic budget, you'll get back what you put in. It's a pleasure to offer whatever advice I can to help you have a happy Hudson experience.

Happy Hudson Hunting,

Dave

53Hornet · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

The only advice I can give you is to first make the decision of what you want the car to be when it is done. 1>Is it going to be a pure Hudson every detail up to snuff. 2>Is it going to be a rod. 3>Are you looking to build a highway cruiser that has the appearance from the 50's. At the end of the day it is what is important to YOU!. Based on that decision you are able to look at cars that will meet that end. From experience I can tell you it will cost $4000-$5000 just to replate all the chrome on a Hudson back to original. So if you were considering options 1 or 3 you would look for a car that has pretty straight chrome pieces and stainless. Outer perimeter unibody rust around back fenders is a critical thing to look out for. There is nothing that cannot be done given the time or money or both. If the vehicle is a sense of pride and personal achievement of what you are capable of and are going to do all of the work yourself be prepared to spend YEARS to get there. If you are not into that and do not have the patience for it. Consider buying a finished car. I can attest that the value of the completed car built totally by yourself will not be a match for a finished car that someone paid someone to do and is now willing to lose a lot of money over. There is a lot of interest in Hudsons they are well supported by purists and rodders alike. Each has their own opinion of what a Hudson should be or is. Some will help you and some will shun you depending upon which way you decide to go. That should not be taken as a reflection of anyone associated with this site it is just a general comment of how things went for me over the last 20 years. At the end of the day it is all a matter of opinion and choice. Step down models are the most supported and the most desired That would be my opinion. Good luck all that is left is to get at it!

51hornet · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Also need to state that repairing a perimeter frame on a Hudson that has rusted through is not a trivial matter. The box construction of the frame relies on the light but rigid frame to provide the structural integrity to the car. I have seen heavy pieces of steel welded in without regard to the structure as a whole. You need to bend the patch properly and make sure once welded it becomes part of the new structure not a non-flexing part.

smdl · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Gentlemen,

Thanks for taking the time to offer advice -- all of it is very helpful to me.

Overall, I think that what I want is a primarly stock car, but that doesn't preclude a few updates intended to enhance performance and/or safety. For example, performance upgrades for the engine would certainly fit my vision, and a front disc brake conversion might be desireable to make the car stop a bit better (seat belts would be a requirement, too). Other than that, I would want the car to be and look totally stock.

Aside from this, I want a car that I can show for fun (not looking to win) and really enjoy driving without having to worry about damging or compromising a "perfect" paint job. Whatever else it is, it will be a driver.

Bottom line is that I really want a cool car that is big enough to load my family into for cruises and car shows, which is something that I can't do now with my Sunbeam Tiger.

Again, my thanks for your input. This forum has already been a great help.

Cheers,
Shaun

51hornet · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Remember when you get your car checkout the links section we have tried to compile the best list of Hudson resources available.

And ask lots of questions here we have members who have added seatbelts, disc brakes and much more to their cars.

Dave53-7C · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

That's what it's all about. Sharin' and Carin' for our Hudsons.

smdl · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Thanks again, guys.