Garage Ideas

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Sean,

Since the members in question are under tension, and no loads are being brought to bear upon them, they are fine for the intended purpose. However, bolts must be used at joints, preferably in conjunction with steel fletch plates.

Mike Holmes and Jon Eakes to the rescue, aye!

If I were licensed to practice in Canada, I'd be glad to do the work and send the invoice. Smile

51hornet · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

I worked my way through Uni doing part time drafting for an Architect and can tell you we never built up a beam and went 26+ feet. We always went glulam 1/3 the weight 5x the strength. That beam is sagging under its own weight. Over that span the weight of the beam works against you. We would use a built up for that span if a post was placed at the 13' mark. And I can tell you that beam would not meet code in Canada.

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Jeez, who would have thought I would have come across two such capable construction types in a Hudson forum! Sometimes life it just too grande for words... Very Happy

First of all, I really appreciate the help! Secondly, I'm not one to take advantage of others, so if you are at all uncomfortable with discussing this topic, or offering advice, PLEASE let me know and it won't bother me a bit. I'll just start calling you "Curmudgeon". Laughing

A few things I should clear up:

1. I don�t think I have done a very good job of describing what I was thinking of (it's so hard to do with just words, sometimes). Let's take storage lofts out of it for a moment. In order to preserve as much height as possible, I had thought to simply insulate the walls and continue right up under the roof deck, thereby creating a lofted ceiling rather than a typical, horizontal 8' ceiling height.

With the basic concept of the lofted ceiling established, I had thought it might be nice just to have a couple of platforms to extend maybe 6-8' out from either side so that I could store things up there. This would leave the center 12-16' open to the finished ceiling above, which would be perfect for a lift (if that works out), or just having a car on a rotisserie without worrying about conflicting with a low ceiling.

On the downside, I'm sure that having this sort of a vaulted ceiling would reduce the amount of potential for insulation as compared to a typical attic and finished ceiling situation. No doubt this would make it harder to heat. There may also be a lot of other really good reasons not to do this, but I have seen pictures of a few garages like this, and it appealed to me.

2. With regard to attaching things to the rafters, what prompted this was seeing what others had done with their garage door rails and openers. Some have adjusted them so that they followed the angle of the roofline and have attached them to the rafters instead of from a horizontal surface, with the intention of leaving the lofted ceiling area as open and unfettered as possible. That said, I have some concerns about what this does to the door from a safety perspective as it is always at risk of dropping rather quickly if the spring fails when the door is open. Perhaps the better option is to just extend the rails higher, on a slight angle, before they transition to the horizontal.

3. I do definitely want to insulate the garage, but I don�t know that I will end up spending a huge amount of time out there during the coldest days of winter. Still, I guess I should plan for both heat and AC even if I don�t put them in place right now (probably wouldn�t invest the $$$ until we are a bit more stable here). It also probably makes sense to design it properly so that I CAN be comfortable out there on very cold days if I really want to be. No use limiting myself.

One ironic bit of trivia is that my neighbour removed and discarded a perfectly functional, ceiling-mounted natural gas heater a few weeks ago as he didn�t have a need for one in his garage. This was before he knew that I was finishing my garage. *sigh*

Well, there you go. Hopefully that explains a bit more of what was going on in my head. As far as getting started goes, the first step will be getting all of the CRAP out of there. We moved in here during the fall, and the garage became a dumping ground for EVERYTHING. With the long winter, and my extended work hours, the place really hasn�t had the attention is needs, but I am starting to get there now. Next step on that front is to get a new shed so that I can get the lawn tractor, snow blower, lawn mower, kid's dirt bike, garden tools, etc. out of there. I hope to do that next weekend.

I'll send some pictures over via PM tonight.

Thanks again for all the great help and advice.

Shaun

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Ah, what the heck. Everyone has seen my life story here already! Let me know if these are too big for the forum and I will adjust accordingly.

Again, what I was thinking of doing was raising the ceiling height to the level of the horizontal braces about 2-3' from the peak. I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would be nice to have the height inside the garage.

Cheers,
Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

No problem, Shaun. Okay, here we go. First, the more you get to know Sean, you'll find he is a most capable and resourceful person.

Secondly, I'm not at all shy about sharing knowledge I possess and am happy to answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

To address your topics:

#1. You did a fine job of describing your garage. If you want to insulate the underside of your roof, you'll first have to install ventilation chutes on the underside of the roof deck, within each rafter bay. These will allow air circulation to occur along the underside of the roof deck, thereby allowing air to circulate from existing, or yet to be installed, soffit and continuous ridge vents. Placing insulation directly on the underside of a roof deck, without providing for air exchange, will result in trapping damaging heat and moisture. In turn, the wood will decay and roof shingles will prematurely age and fail.

#2. I get the concept of installing a lift and your desire to keep the center of the ceiling open and flanked by front and rear storage/loft areas. Based upon the dimension of your rafters, I anticipate a ceiling insulation value of no more than R-13 would be achievable. Regarding supporting loft areas from the rafters, this defies the intended purpose and function of rafters as it imposes loads upon them that were not originally planned for. From what I see in your pictures, the correct way to keep the ceiling area as high as possible, while providing flanking loft/storage areas, would be to install a laminated beam from side to side, spaced to accomodate your needs. Then, you would install joists from the front and rear wall to span to each beam. The joists must be attached to beams using metal hangers. Even if local code requirements to not require them, I would suggest that a steel lally column be installed to support the end span of each beam. In performing the aforementioned, a loft area would then exist above your overhead door and be duplicated at the rear of the garage. The beams, columns and joists would then properly direct the loads to the foundation. Having seen your pictures, I'm not so concerned about the spliced joists. Reason being, their existance and function are superfluous since I see your roof framing includes collars ties. These horizontal members function to prevent rafter ends from splaying outward and must not be removed. So, in essence, the members in question can be eliminated and replaced as I've indicated above.

If you intend to finish the walls and ceilings, insulating them after the fact would be time consuming and expensive. So, insulate first and be sure to use a vapor barrier between the insulations and finished interior surfaces.

#3. Too bad about the neighbor getting rid of the heater. However, it may not have been of the type you'd want anyway. The garage journal is a good source for getting the low down on heater sales. I'd suggest that you give consideration to heating and air conditoning by at least roughing in for gas, electric and venting. AC can take the form of anything from a wall sleeve unit to a split system whereas you have an evaporator fan coil within the garage, connected to an outdoor condenser via a conventional line-set. For my attached three (3) car garage, fully insulated with finished walls and ceiling, I have a one ton/12k BTU/Hr. AC unit. The heat source is a gas fired forced air furnace with an output rating of approximately 36,000 BTU/Hr.

I think we're in synch on what you have and what will be required for you to accomplish your goals. The shed is a good way of keeping the garage free of clutter. Before you commit to buying or building one, please consult your local building department since many communities now require permits for construction of larger sheds.

BTW, isn't that Tiger I see supposed to be in your tank? Or are you too young to know what I'm talking about? Laughing

If you have further questions, please ask.

Now go get that garage cleaned out! Wink

Dave

smdl · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Once again, great advice, Dave.

A few thoughts and questions that you comments generated in my mind:

a) Yes, I knew that ventilation would be something that I would need to deal with, having been through some re-roofing jobs in the past where there wasn't enough. The roof was only done about 6-7 years ago and, as it is a metal roof, should last a good long time. Soffitt vents are in place, but I can't locate anything on top (must be something there?). Is it reasonably easy to add ventilation to the existing roof? I can see why you would spec continous ridge venting for this, as you would need ventilation at the top of each rafter bay for the chutes to feed into.

b) I had been thinking of having the storage lofts on left and right, instead of the front and back, in order to take advantage of the higher part of the roof. Front and back does sound interesting, though, and the front one provides a great location to mount all the overhead door hardware to. By the way, I never had any intention of trying to hang lofts from the rafters, only the O/H door openers, etc.

c) Earlier, you expressed concern about installing a lift. This is something that I would dearly love from a convenience perspective, but you are correct in saying that it might not be practical. Removing this requirement also make the ventilation issue much easier to deal with. So, if the lift (and the high-ceiling requirement) was removed from the equation, how would that change your recommendations for this garage?

d) On the heating side, I am very fortunate in that my pool heater is right next to the garage, so I don't have too far to go for the gas supply. As an alternative, though, what are your thoughts about electric in this application? It seems to me that there may be some value in the form of dust-reduction if I do choose to do any painting of parts in there.

e) I would DEFINITELY insulate first. I can't imagine why anybody would do it the other way, given the choice!

f) I'm only looking at a prefab 10x10 shed, which should be enough to hold what I need for now. I don't really care if it is a bit crowded in there as long as my garage is clear! I don't think that there are any issues at all with sheds around here. The lots are large, and the area is surrounded by agricultural land. For the most part, people just seem to leave each other alone up here, although I'm sure that would be much different down in the city proper. Still, good advice, and I will check with the town before going ahead.

Thanks again, Dave.

Shaun

ps: I do definitely 'get' the "Tiger in Your Tank" reference! Razz

The Tiger you see is named Kendall, and he is watching protectively over this one:

51hornet · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Buyer's Guide?

Shaun,

I seen this type of build so many times. On site design by the contractor no architect would have tied that large a cross span in place without using engineered trusses then you would have had a nice center height. Does each rafter connect to the wall with a simpson tie? I am thinking they are just toenailed. For snow load in Canada you cannot remove the cross ties unless you have each rafter secured with a simpson tie. It will be a galvy metal connector at the the connection of the wall and rafter. The collar ties are not good enough for snow loading considering you have had some crazy winters in TO with 4 foot snow falls and ice rain. If you remove the cross ties which are installed shitty anyway make sure you use retrofit simpson ties to button that roof up.

Now IMHO I would say screw the loft storage and go for a lift in the center. After working two summers on my back on my Hudson I would never do that shit again. When I pulled my driveline I could have done the job in 2 days with a lift. Instead it took me two weeks of cursing under the car on the floor. For 2K I would get a lift in a heart beat. So I would vote for lift all the way if I had a choice. Stack stuff in the ten by ten. Also I would go with a sealed gas tube heater or if you love a challenge a passive solar setup heating water I would send into reclaimed radiators from a salvage yard.

Oh yeah love the Sunbeam.....sweet...

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Shaun,

A) Yes, in conjunction with the soffit vents, a continuous ridge vent would be required to encourage air movement within each rafter bay. Regardless of shingle composition, proper ventilation is a must.

B) Yes, I see what you mean about locating the lofts on either side of the garage. My idea of locating the lofts front and rear was to give you a generous, uninterrupted length of ceiling height. 10-4 on the door operators. Using punched steel angle is your best bet.

C) My concern with installing a lift is to first determine the PSI capacity of the floor concrete, thickness, gravel fill, reinforcement, etc. The easiest way to accomplish this would be to have a core sample taken from the floor. If the lift were eliminated, two laminated beams would still span from side to side. The end span of each would be supported within wall framing, using steel lally columns. Then, ceiling joists could be attached and a finished ceiling applied. Ceiling insulation could then be made more generous and a fire-code approved pull-down ladder could be installed to allow access to storage.

D) Ah, you have a pool! (Hey, Sean, I see a pool party in our future!) If I had a pool heater next to my garage, (essentially a gas fired, forced circulation hot water boiler) I'd valve it so that it I could sequester it from the pool during winter. Then, I'd add water and anti-freeze (as used in solar heating applications) and pipe hot water to an air to water coil within an air handler/fan coil installed within the garage. For cooling purposes, the fan coil could be equipped with a conventional evaporator coil and outdoor condenser. That would be one heck of a system.

E) You now how it is, Shaun, some people get all excited and forget themselves or think they don't need it. Just wagging my finger as a reminder.F) A 10'x10' shed should not require a permit, even in the most strict of jurisdictions. One of the most important things to keep in mind when doing a shed are installing it on a concrete pad. If a pad is not in the plan, at least use concrete pier blocks to keep the floor framing elevated above the earth. Also, year-round cross ventilation is required to dispel heat and moisture as well as fumes from lawn equipment. Installing a bottom hinged metal door (like aluminum diamond plate for that techy look) would function as both a door and ramp for wheeled equipment.

Excuse my lack of insight, but exactly what year and make is that vehicle Kendall is watching over?

Twenty-five years of design and nothing has fallen down...yet. Laughing

Glad to help,

Dave

Dave53-7C · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Oh, it's a Sunbeam. It's a cute little bugger. Looks like it would be loads of fun to drive.

smdl · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Sean,

Good question. I don't know if there are Simpson ties in place, but will have a look. Thanks for the heads up!

Dave,

Lot's of good answers, as usual. I will consider all very carefully.

As you both have surmised, the car is a Sunbeam. It's a 1965 Tiger Mark 1 running a HiPo 289 with a Toploader 4-speed and Dana 44 rear. Very fun!

Some history here is you are interested:

tigersunited.com/

Again, my sincere thanks to both of you for all your help!

Cheers,
Shaun

smdl · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Hey! I've been promoted to Commodore! What a great title -- maybe I'll finally get some respect around this place. Rolling Eyes

Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Hey Shaun,

The end span of your rafters should have a bird's mouth cut where they bear upon the wall's top plate. At that juncture, they would be nailed. Between the bird's mouths and collar ties, your roof isn't going anywhere. When you move forward with your garage project, installing proper beams and joists will further bolster the roof structure. Currently, the only areas in the US using metal ties and braces (not joist hangers or struts) are those prone to seismic activity. As you are probably aware, homeowners are not required to bring buildings up to current code requirements unless they are doing structural or mechanical changes that require them.

So, tell us more about the Sunbeam. How long have you had it and did you restore it? Wasn't Chrysler somehow responsible for the demise of Sunbeam?

Your title is a great one, being the name of top-of-line Hudsons for many years. You'll know you've been demoted if your title changes to Jet or Pacemaker. Laughing

Dave

smdl · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Hi, guys.

Just got home, so I haven't had a chance to look at the rafters. Will try to have a look tomorrow (if I manage to get home earlier).

Not too much to tell on the Tiger as I only got it just as I was moving to Toronto last fall. It belonged to a friend in Vancouver, and I know the history of the car for about the last 15 years. The most important part is that it is completely rust-free and authentic (there are a number of Alpine's done up to look like Tigers out there, so you have to be careful).

This is actually my second Tiger. The first one was also a 1965 Mk I, but it was Wedgewood Blue. I made the decision to sell that one when my son was born as my wife would not be working, and I had to buy a new car for her. I always promised myself that I would get another when I could, and when this one came up, I was able to make good on that promise.

I don't know if you can really say that Chrysler was responsible for the demise of the company, as the Rootes Group managed to run themselves into a heap of trouble all on their own and Chrysler was the saviour that came to their rescue. By the time the Tiger debuted, they were already a partial shareholder in the company, and took over completely somewhere around '66 or '67. The operation then became "Chrysler Europe", which soldiered on for many years until they finally ended up selling it all to Peugot for $1.00 (plus assumption of all the debt).

What really killed Rootes was the entire British labour system during the period, which brought down almost all of the British motor industry over a ten-year period. The big killer was the Sunbeam Imp, as it was a radical departure from anything else, and had some teething problems when it was first introduced. Unfortunately, several years of extensive strikes had denied Rootes the cash they desperately needed to make this major project successful.

You can read a brief history of the problems here:

www.everything2.com/e2...%2520Group

What can be said for sure is that Chrysler was never happy having a Ford motor in one of their cars! They quickly got rid of all the "Powered By FORD" badges and changed them over to "Sunbeam V8". They also airbrushed out all the Ford markings in the literature for the performance accessories that were available for the car. Unfortunately (for their sake), no Chrysler V8 would fit...

Overall, the Tiger is one of the best collector cars to have, mainly because it fits in almost anywhere. British cars? Right this way, sir. Hot rods? Little car with big V8? Sure, c'mon in. Ford show? Right-o! Chrysler? Welcome! Shelby? Let me check my notes, sir. Ah, here it is! Follow me... You get the idea. They are also an incredible blast to drive.

Well, from one orphaned make to another, that's probably a lot more than you really wanted to know. Rolling Eyes

Cheers, guys.

Shaun

Dave53-7C · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Shaun,

The garage will be there, waiting patiently. When you have time, take a peek and tell us what you see.

Thanks for the story on your Tiger. It's sweet! Also, thanks for the link and insight on the company.

Well, it seems that Chrysler at least played a hand in killing off yet another great marque. History will show that as their MO. I'm sure that at the times when labor strikes occur, those involved don't think about anything other than the matter at hand. When we look at the history of stikes and the lasting impacts they've left, we see the most devestating effects being placed on the automobile industry.

I like the "puckered arsehole pentastar" reference to the Chrysler log.
Sounds like something I would write. Laughing

So true about your car, it can fit in just about any car show catagory. And, with it's domestic drivetrain, parts and repairs should be a relatively easy.

BTW, was the blue convert in the pic yours?

Dave

smdl · Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Garage Ideas

Hi, Dave.

I just got home again, so the garage will have to be a bit more patient.

I assume that the mention of Chrysler killing of brands relates to AMC? Really sad, the way that all went. I'm not too thrilled about what they are doing to Jeep either, at the moment. The Compass, in particular, just doesn't seem to be a good fit. I guess we'll have to see what the new guys do.

The blue car is my first Tiger, with I owned from 2000 through 2003. Great car, all around.

Cheers,
Shaun